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Plagiarism?!!

 
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Plagiarism?!! - 7/1/2006 3:08:09 AM   
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hermanhum
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There are some serious allegations being made in the Support forum that the rest of the community and Matrix Admins should be aware of so I am bringing light to them in the Main area.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flankerk

As suggested I have done further research on the databases by way of comparison.
I have attached a table showing many of the torpedoes typically used. I would be interested to hear the comments of the PDB authors.


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< Message edited by hermanhum -- 7/1/2006 3:25:20 AM >


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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/1/2006 3:13:35 AM   
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hermanhum
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quote:

ORIGINAL:  Sunburn

Another interesting comparison:

I see an AWFUL LOT of common things between the DB2000 (a project that has been running since 1996) and the PlayersDB (a DB that appeared out of nowhere last year). In contrast, I see very few common things between the PDB and either the HUD-2 or the original H2AE DB.

The PoK differentiation argument is shallow. Creating the multiple DB records is the hard part (be it by legitimate or illegitimate copying or from scratch). Once that is done, batch-modifying the PoK values is trivial; in fact, it's a 2-minute SQL-script job.


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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/1/2006 3:15:32 AM   
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hermanhum
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quote:

ORIGINAL:  Flankerk

I'm still waiting for a response from Herman on why the torpedo ranges are so close. I recall the discussion on Harpoon Headquarters about changing the ranges to those we use. I even joined in with it. The ranges then seem to directly get taken into PDB. It is also noticeable that the torpedoes directly agree to entries in DB2000 from PDB but often have no equivalent in Players Databases's "originator" DB the HUD/H2AE.

As mentioned some time before, I look forward to the authors comments.


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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/1/2006 3:17:41 AM   
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hermanhum
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flankerk

As the question keeps being evaded, I'll ask it again.
Why are the torpedo ranges used in players database derived so closely from DB2000 ?

As requested I also attach some more research.



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< Message edited by hermanhum -- 7/1/2006 3:23:59 AM >


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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/1/2006 3:19:18 AM   
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hermanhum
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flankerk

All these "coincidences" and yet not a comment from the authors?
I assume this is an admission by omission on their part?

And still not even an apology.........

Perhaps they are busily renaming it the Plagiarised Database


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< Message edited by hermanhum -- 7/1/2006 3:20:19 AM >


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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/1/2006 3:21:59 AM   
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hermanhum
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quote:

ORIGINAL:  Flankerk

You know, if this wasn't on such a scale........
I'd have run out of things to post by now

Perhaps that is why even the most avid defenders of the players database are nowhere to be seen.


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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/1/2006 3:26:28 AM   
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hermanhum
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I started going through your 'research' and decided that it was so poorly done that I simply could not continue. After only looking at the first entry, I realized that you had not done anything at all except look at the name of the weapon.  Obviously, this was done in order to support your case as any extraneous details (also know as Facts) would not get in your way.

Note: I did not have to 'CHERRY-PICK' any special cases in order to prove how utterly worthless your 'research' is.  I simply took the first example on your list for my analysis.  Since you have so carefully selected 48 cases that support your agenda and ignored all others, I shall return the favour and ignore the remaining 47 since they are as flawed as the first.

1) The torpedo you have listed is the Spearfish torpedo.  I notice that you have conveniently forgotten to note in your chart that the DB2k has two versions of this weapon.

ID:    Name:    Name
390        Spearfish Mod 0|20nm
755        Spearfish Mod 1|20nm

2) Again, you have conveniently managed to compare it with the entry that most supports your case, #755.  Unfortunately, the PlayersDb and HUD have this weapon numbered as #390.  For the purposes of this discussion, I will compare the exact same weapon from all three databases.

3) For the convenience of those without knowledge of the DB editor, I have attached three images from the three files in question.  

HUD-II / H3DB / HCDB
PlayersDB
DB2k



Those unable to differentiate between the three images need to stop reading as you will certainly find the analysis confusing.

4) Had you bothered to do ANY research, [instead of making superficial allegations and then being becoming the spokesman for them], you would have seen that the fuel ranges are different.  You will note that the PlayersDb value is exactly the same as the HUD-II value.

HUD-II / H3DB / HCDB
PlayersDB
DB2k



5) Had you bothered to do ANY research, [instead of making superficial allegations and then being becoming the spokesman for them], you would have seen that the torpedo engine used by the PlayersDb is nearly identical to the HUD engine both in terms of fuel consumption and speed.

HUD-II / H3DB / HCDB
PlayersDB
DB2k



HUD-II / H3DB / HCDB
PlayersDB
DB2k



Now, you asked about how the Maximum firing range was generally calculated for this particular weapon:

The Maximum range that this weapon will travel with the fuel value of 3103 is 40nm at a speed of 48 kts.  This means a travel time of approximately 50 minutes.  Under the assumption that a target was capable of moving 40kts in evasion, and that the evasion would start immediately upon detection, a firing range of 6nm was calculated.  

This assumes that a target will detect the torpedo upon launch and immediately run away at 40kts.  At the end of its run, the torpedo is expected to have travelled 40nm while the target is expected to have travelled only 33.3nm + 6nm original separation.  Therefore, the torpedo can be assumed to have caught and and engaged the target.  Not all weapons are calculated with the same assumptions, but most share similar baselines.

6) Had you bothered to do ANY research, [instead of making superficial allegations and then being becoming the spokesman for them], you would have found that the sensor used by the PlayersDb more closely resembles the HUD version in terms of both range, capability, and frequency.

HUD-II / H3DB / HCDB
PlayersDB
DB2k



7) Had you bothered to do ANY research, [instead of making superficial allegations and then being becoming the spokesman for them and violating a number of this forum's rules in the meanwhile], you would have found that the communications equipment carried by the PlayersDb version is nearly identical to that carried by the HUD version.

HUD-II / H3DB / HCDB
PlayersDB
DB2k



Be forewarned: Accusations of plagiarism are very serious acts. The commission of such acts on Matrix forums will involve the administration.

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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/1/2006 4:54:42 AM   
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thewood1
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First time on these forums I have seen a non-mod have all six posts. Seems kind of like talking to yourself. Can you guys take this somewhere else? I worry that we may be scaring of potential new users.

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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/1/2006 9:47:48 AM   
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Hertston
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Can you guys take this somewhere else?


Or indeed leave ie where it was. I don't see the point of essentially copying one thread into another.

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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/1/2006 10:15:06 AM   
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TMC
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This whole discussion is pointless and childish in both threads. It just turns off any new people that might be interested in the game. If both parties are so concern about copyrights just take it to court and watch it get laugh out of court. Move on please.

< Message edited by TMC -- 7/1/2006 10:17:28 AM >

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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/1/2006 12:27:37 PM   
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CV32
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quote:

... just take it to court and watch it get laugh out of court. Move on please.


I couldn't have said it better myself. This stuff is a little amusing, but only a little. People should make better use of their time. You don't need to be responding to this, Herman. Just friendly advice.

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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/1/2006 2:47:43 PM   
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Flankerk
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Slightly baffled why another thread was started on this, especially as it contravened Brads advice?

It seemed to belong better in the other thread.

I have answered Hermans query regarding the Spearfish torpedo there.

It would seem reasonable to restrict this line of argument to one thread and one thread only. Although people could conceivably be put off....... posting contrived bugs by people who do not have the game might do the same ?

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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/1/2006 2:52:35 PM   
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rhondabrwn
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CV32

quote:

... just take it to court and watch it get laugh out of court. Move on please.


I couldn't have said it better myself. This stuff is a little amusing, but only a little. People should make better use of their time. You don't need to be responding to this, Herman. Just friendly advice.


I found it rather interesting. After seeing this analysis of three different databases, I finally understand how complex they are AND how they represent different interpretations of equipment specs and capabilities AND support different scenarios.

Now, I kinda understand what all the catfighting is about

Anyway, I actually found this thread of value. I've certainly seen plenty of threads on this forum with far less educational and entertainement significance.

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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/1/2006 3:00:14 PM   
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danrh
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flankerk

Slightly baffled why another thread was started on this, especially as it contravened Brads advice?

It seemed to belong better in the other thread.

I have answered Hermans query regarding the Spearfish torpedo there.

It would seem reasonable to restrict this line of argument to one thread and one thread only. Although people could conceivably be put off....... posting contrived bugs by people who do not have the game might do the same ?


Does seem strange doesn't it to have all the responses to one thread posted in another thread altogether. Almost as if one is trying to make it harder to compare one with the other. Perhaps the mods should merge the two threads.

Daniel

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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/3/2006 9:06:50 AM   
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hermanhum
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First of all, I'm sorry if this was late coming: I agreed with TMC that this debate is causing more damage than good to the game, and for this reason I asked permission from Matrix administration before making a reply. What follows will not degenerate in personal attacks - which of course is what I was asked to avoid :)
 
After examining all the “evidence” (for the lack of a better word) presented on the forum in these last days, I understand that this accusation of “plagiarism” stems from a single observation: some platforms are placed in the same position in the two databases and share the same ID number.  Obviously, this is true.

There is a simple reason for this.  Erratic and Unannounced Changes within the Db2k format had, in the past, threatened great instability for any scenario dependant upon it.  Therefore, it was decided to find an alternative database that would be more stable.  When the PlayersDB was being drafted, there were a lot of pre-existing scenarios originally written for the DB2k that needed to be converted to the PlayersDB.  

When a scenario is built, the various units within the scenario file are assigned an address / ID number from the database. This is how it finds the various aircraft, ships, and sub units within the database.  If a scenario is built with airplane #300, then there must be an Airplane #300 in the DB or it will crash (this is, BTW, the reason why DB2k was causing scenario writers problems; as extensively documented on StrategyZoneOnline).

So, when there was a need for Airplane #300 (if it was a Hornet), we found a Hornet somewhere in the HUD-II / H3DB / HCDB (it might have been #100) and cloned / modified it to #300 in the PlayersDB. This was done to make the database compatible with the scenario (usually, you make a database and then the scenarios, but in this case, we pretty much worked backwards!)

Take the following examples from the PlayersDB:



One can see for oneself that there are MANY clones of the same plane.  In fact, this is already explicitly noted in the PlayersDB ReadMe file with:

"If two entries have the same name,
They are the same plane/ship/sub."

Would you also believe that every F-16AM listed above is actually the SAME plane? Not ‘similar’, not close, but CLONE.

Sorry for those trying, but all I can see here is a lot of hot air and ruckus (followed by serious accusations):

Not about intellectual property (since all weapons performance and other extrapolations are from HCDB/HUD/H3Db and has been proven, without a shadow of doubt, HERE) and, of course,

Not about the fact that both DBs – surprise! - list factual data about platforms existing in the real world.

No: the explicit accusation of plagiarism stems from the way platforms are ***placed*** inside a database for technical purposes.

I would like to add my two cents about the whole matter:

It is claimed that the PlayersDB appeared overnight. This is true: when the project was started, no details were leaked until it was ready for publication. The only hint that an alternative Database was in the works was the public announcement on March 20, 2005, by the H3DB group. Considerable work had already been accomplished by then. This shows how these accusations are have been made to work: make an arbitrary assumption, brand it as “fact”, and build from there.

Other databases claim to be “used by professionals”. Good for them: the aim of the H3DB / HUD-II / PlayersDB was to provide the Harpoon community with alternative views to the inner workings of modern naval warfare by creating a database that allowed for different weapon performances, doctrines, and behaviours within the game. Of course, any database reflects only the view of its editors and this is why there are so many databases in circulation. This is also why the PlayersDB is original.

A lot of whining has been raised regarding “respect for third-party work”.  However, as everyone can see for themselves with just a glance at the “evidence” exposed here, a lot of very hard and original work went into assessing the performance for weapons, sensors, and platforms.  This work was done by:

HCDB [Edited by Brad Leyte],
HUD-II [Edited by Darren Buckley],
H3DB [Edited by Fred Galano], and
HC-Euro-DB [Edited by Rene Haar]

The PlayersDB stands on the shoulders of these editors, as recognized in its credits. The 17,000 current PlayersDB entries are founded on data from these excellent works. No sign of respect for this work has been shown by the accusers.

I will not “connect the dots” myself.  Nor, will I speculate about why someone is, once again, whining for “justice and respect for all” yet, in the same breath, diffusing allegations and even serious accusations about anyone who is not *Himself* or from his site. My only real hope is that the intelligence, open-mindedness, and past experience of the Matrix community, constantly shown in all these gaming fora, will allow for this childish and damaging behaviour to be put to rest once and for all – at least here. And, that in the future, the energies wasted in this futile debate will be put to better use in creating scenarios and databases - for all the community to enjoy and to help the game thrive.

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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/3/2006 9:36:25 AM   
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Flankerk
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Herman, I asked before and I'll have to ask again. Why start and keep running another thread where it would be better to keep this all under the one?

You also haven't actually addressed any of those specific points I made. We are onto somewhere around 6 pages of items copied, including a copied deleted entry, and copied Torpedo ranges.

I have pointed out where our decision was made on the Torpedo ranges and some of our reasoning behind it.

You have not spoken on those issues other than to start another thread you have entitled plagiarism, which is by your own statement a serious admission.

I'm as baffled by this as by your posting those HHQ After Action Reports all over the Web

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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/3/2006 10:30:54 AM   
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This really isn't helpful to some of us considering getting the game.  I was going to get H3 and TOAW III eventually, but I went with the latter first for a few reasons.  But I will admit that reading some of the H3 forums here and elsewhere gave me the impression that the H3 community is divided into armed camps.  I'm probably wrong - I belong to a few communities that must seem very dysfunctional to outsiders - but the drama factor seems to be a bit high with this. 

Just thinking out loud.

Edited to add: I hope I didn't sound confrontational with my post - that wasn't my intention. I was just supporting the idea that some new users (or old users from back in the 360 days) might shy away from the game if the forums look overly emotional and dramatic.

< Message edited by Arnir -- 7/3/2006 10:37:27 AM >


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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/3/2006 10:41:59 AM   
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Sunburn
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Arnir, don't let the screams of a few immature people distract you from the gem that is H3. Be sure to check out the demo and the plentiful third-party material available and you'll be able to make an informed judgement of the product on its own merits. The Harpoon community has had its problems (Which community hasn't? Falcon 4 perhaps? ) but OTOH you can take this both ways: yes, in a sense it means there are personal disagreements and people don't always see each other eye-to-eye on things. But it also means that people in this community are passionate in what they do, are eager to move the game forward and can be counted upon to help each other and particularly new players. Arguments means passions, and passions means drive and dedication. These are all good treats, and if you do make the move to H3 I think you will too discover, as many others have done, that the positive aspects of the Harpoon community far outweigh its few bad apples.

Like I said before, be sure you'll give it a try, if nothing else at least the demo. You'll probably not regret it.


< Message edited by Sunburn -- 7/3/2006 10:47:16 AM >


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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/3/2006 10:47:04 AM   
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Arnir
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Sunburn,

Thanks for the response. I'm sure you are correct. Passion about these games is a good thing. I'm very close to getting H3. I had the originals from 360 but none of my computers had the horse power to handle the games. With an AMD 64 3200+, I'm hoping that I won't have to worry this time.

I think the community is probably great, but I just wanted to point out that I've read a few "the sky is falling" threads and it does possibly cast a negative light on a great project.

I'll look up the demo.

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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/3/2006 10:54:50 AM   
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Sunburn
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That's great! Be sure to contact me either through this forum or through PM or e-mail if you need any help with the third-party stuff.

Also have a look at some of the community resources, here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1163078


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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/3/2006 11:02:58 AM   
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Flankerk
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Herman, could I suggest that any replies are posted to the thread you are addressing, as opposed to starting others? It would appear that your "polite" reactions are having an adverse effect on new & prospective players. The discussion started on a thread in the support forum so no sense in splitting it up.

Admins any chance of moving this thread into the copy thread if possible?

That might look to be the ideal solution.

< Message edited by Flankerk -- 7/3/2006 11:13:34 AM >


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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/3/2006 11:51:54 AM   
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Sunburn
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Comments to Herman's claims provided in the original thread, here.

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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/3/2006 1:52:40 PM   
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Arnir
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

That's great! Be sure to contact me either through this forum or through PM or e-mail if you need any help with the third-party stuff.

Also have a look at some of the community resources, here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1163078



I appreciate the offer to help. I'll keep in touch.

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RE: Plagiarism?!! - 7/3/2006 10:08:25 PM   
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Erik Rutins
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I'm going to move this to the Scenario Design and Modding sub-forum, as I received a PM from someone who thought this was about the database that shipped with H3ANW. To be clear, we have no problem with these discussions - passionate as they can be - as long as there are no personal attacks. Keep things civil and informative and everything's fine.

Regards,

- Erik

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